Episode 4

full
Published on:

22nd Jul 2025

4. Learning to Trust When You Don’t Know What’s Next

When the vision you were building your life around suddenly cracks… what then?

This episode is your permission slip to be in the in-between, to not know, and to trust yourself anyway.

I chat about:

  • A powerful reframe to use when things fall apart: “If this is for me… then now what?”
  • Why the void—the in-between—isn’t empty, but deeply alive
  • How fear of being “ordinary” might be keeping you from your truth
  • What trust really looks like in the middle of transformation
  • The surprising metaphor from pottery class that anchors it all

You’ll walk away feeling seen, softened, and maybe even a little braver.

Mentioned in this episode:


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Transcript
Andrea Matthies:

I'm Andrea Lee Matthies, writer, photographer,

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and Clairvoyant Medium, and this

is the Bold, Brave Woman Project.

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This podcast is a living, breathing,

unfolding of what it really

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means to step into our becoming.

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Born from the ashes of a failed YouTube

channel, this weekly podcast brings you

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real unfiltered moments of failure, of

bravery, and of deep intuitive knowing.

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so that you too can step into who you are

becoming with even more trust and bravery.

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Let's dive in.

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Hello and welcome back to another

episode of The Bold, Brave Woman Project.

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It's been a really big week, actually,

in the last episode, I talked a lot

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about this big realization that I

had at the event that perhaps all the

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decisions that I had made and the type

of life that I'd been driving towards.

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Really, perhaps wasn't what

I really wanted, and I had

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held a lot of realizations.

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I'll link in the show notes that episode

if you wanna go back and listen to it.

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But over the course of the week, I've

been deeply thinking about it and deeply

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feeling into that and trying to figure

out, well, if not that, then what?

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One of my favorite, favorite mentors,

Melanie Ann Layer of the AlphaFemme brand.

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If you haven't, uh, had Melanie

in your world yet, I highly

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recommend you check her out.

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She's amazing.

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But she has one of these incredible

sayings that I really, really love,

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and it is, if this is for me, then

now what, Rather than seeing things

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happening to us and then starting

to try and question those things, or

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attribute blame or shame to the events

that are happening in our lives.

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Having this slight reframe of

saying, well, if this is for me.

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It's almost like it gives us back

our power to be able to use whatever

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is happening in our world as.

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Not just a positive, but a catalyst

as a driver to either shift us or

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heal us or change us or even simply

pivot us into a new direction.

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Funnily enough, I've used the word simply

in front of the word pivot, which is.

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Interesting because sometimes pivots

that we go through in our lives can

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be particularly deep and can can

be completely soul reorienting and

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there's nothing simple about that.

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But having this ability

to say, this is for me.

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This circumstance, this confrontation,

this sadness, this fear, all these

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things that are being revealed

or mirrored back to me is, for

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me is such a beautiful place to.

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Move into when we wanna naturally go into

that crisis state or that questioning

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state, that negative questioning state, I

should say, in terms of blame attribution,

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has been really helpful in me on my

journey because this event that I went to

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last week and this whole realization that

I perhaps was, was sleepwalking into a

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life that I didn't really want, has been

so helpful to say, okay, this is for me.

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For whatever reason, if even

if I can't see it clearly right

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now, this that's happening, this

energy and this redirecting is

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for me, it's like, okay, great.

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Take a deep breath.

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This is for me.

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So now what?

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So what now do I do?

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What is the next thing

that I need to know?

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The next thing that I need to look

at, heal, take action around, and it's

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a beautiful question that I can pose

out to my guide, to my angels, to the

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universe, or God, whoever it is that I

feel drawn to connect with in that moment.

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It's like, okay, if this

is for me, then now what?

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It's allowing this beautiful

open-ended question to be

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reverberated out into the universe.

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And sometimes the answers can come

quite quickly, like your intuition

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will light up and all of a sudden the

answer to that question will come in.

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But over the last week, this real

deep realization of I need to do

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something significantly different.

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I need to look at who

I am, who I have been.

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What I've been doing and the direction

that I'm going and really understand

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is this, what I want is this version

of me who I truly wanna be and what

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is there underneath all of the masks.

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And if this is for me.

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Then what is here now?

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What is the next now thing that I

need to feel into, look into reorient

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so that I can keep moving forward?

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And the big question that keeps

coming up for me is, what is it

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that I actually truly desire?

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That is the thing that has been top of

mind for me over the last week since

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this big realization and having these

big conversations with my husband

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around, making some significant changes

in my lifestyle and the way that I show

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up in the world, and I don't actually

have the answer to the, now what?

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And that can be tricky.

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Um, sometimes it can feel

like, okay, great, this is

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happening for me, but now what?

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And when the answer doesn't

come, it can feel really empty.

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It can feel really lonely.

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It can feel really, I.

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Difficult to navigate into the space

of not knowing what to do particularly,

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um, for someone like me who's been

quite logic based, quite action based,

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or having to have the strategy or the

knowing of where I'm going to, to be

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able to then orient myself around that,

and it's placed me very firmly into this

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space or the liminal space of the void.

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Over the last week, and you might have

heard lots of different people talk

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about the void, but for me, the best

way I have found to define it for myself

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to kind of bring myself some peace and

some understanding around this phase

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is it's the liminal space or the the

energy and the space that we move into.

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Not physically, but energetically, and

from a, a mind and a quantum perspective

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of the in-between, between who I have

been and who I am currently and who I'm

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becoming, and being in that void, in that

liminal space can be really challenging.

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Particularly, when we don't

have a, or I don't have a clear

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view on the, who am I becoming?

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And being in a void space, this

liminal space, without that answer,

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without a definite picture, image,

factual, or known state of what

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I'm moving into, can feel really.

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It's like a desperate energy almost

if you don't know how to accept

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it or embrace it or step into

the beautiful energy of trust.

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And so over the last week, I'm having

to learn how to access these different

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levels of trust within myself to be

able to hold myself in this in-between

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moment, this in-between space.

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And the thing with transformation and

becoming and being in these middle moments

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is that there's no, there's no real

defined length of time that that takes.

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Sometimes that in-between space can happen

in a nano moment of this is who I was.

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This is the realization,

here's the energy, here is the

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stage that I'm moving into.

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Bang, I'm shifting.

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Whereas other times it can last a lot

longer, and so it's been a week now since

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a lot of this stuff has unfolded and

I've had to have some big conversations

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with not only myself, but others around

me around this is how I'm feeling.

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I'm realizing that all of the things

that I've said that I've done, that I've

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prided myself on up until now, perhaps,

aren't the things that are gonna get

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me to this beautiful next level of

existence that I can feel that is on

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the other side of this transformation,

of this liminal moment of becoming.

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But I just don't know

exactly what that is.

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But I can feel it.

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And that's one of the things why

harnessing and harvesting trust

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in this period and in this time,

is absolutely imperative because

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without trust, trust me, the feelings

that get left are helplessness,

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uh, loneliness, uh, desperation.

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Are abandonment.

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There can be so many different facets

of emotions like this that surface up

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and surface up and become the reality

they become, almost the mind wants to

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latch onto them and say, well, this

is, this is all there is here now.

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The brain is so much more comfortable

having an emotion or having an a,

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a belief or a state, even if that

is a negative state, than it is to

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just be in the space of trust of, I

don't know, but it's gonna be okay.

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Humans are wired to have something.

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So definite that the brain will

automatically try and attach itself to

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something logical, to something tangible.

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Like I said, even if it is heavy,

even if it is emotional, to explain

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the state, to have something

rather than just an emptiness of.

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I'm in the becoming.

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I am in the middle, and that's why trying

to find a way to be able to trust that,

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to breathe, to relax, to just be like,

I don't know what, but I let it go.

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I let it go so that I can really.

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Be truly in this moment of becoming,

and I know, I know, I know.

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I know.

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Sometimes this sounds like, like just

this airy fairy foofy kind of like, yeah,

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great, but that's not how my mind works.

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Like I understand that that is

something that can come up with an

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absolute force when you hear concepts.

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this.

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Like when someone says just trust you.

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Sometimes you just wanna

punch 'em in the face.

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And I get that.

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I get that because I've been there.

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And that if you're being activated

in any way with what I'm saying

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here and you're just like, can I

just punch this lady in the face?

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Because this whole concept of like just

letting go and trusting is like crazy.

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Just know that there is absolute beauty

and all of this stuff being surfaced in

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this space, in this in-between space of

the not knowing and the needing to know

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that is actually a beautiful guidepost

to bring you back to the trust, to

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really hear beyond the words that I'm

saying to the energy to the truth that

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lies beyond the words that I'm saying.

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To get to that point of

like, yeah, she's right.

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There is trust that can be harnessed

here because I know, I feel that feeling

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deep in your gut, deep inside your bones,

everything that is you, and everything

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that is beyond your physical form.

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There is this knowing of like, yeah.

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Yeah, she's right.

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There is something there.

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Even if I can't tangibly draw it,

see it, guarantee it, know it.

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I know that it's coming

and I know that it is real.

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And so I'm going to harness the

only thing that I can right now

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in this moment, and that is trust.

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And so even though I know this moment is

for me coming back to my story and sitting

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here right now telling this to you, I

don't know what is on the other side.

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And the season here in Melbourne

it's gray and it's cold, and

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it's windy and it's rainy.

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It's so easy for me to fall into

a state that really matches that.

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Closed contraction, cold type environment.

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I'm allowing myself to just breathe

and know beyond the clouds of sunshine,

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beyond this transformational moment is

something that is worth waiting for.

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It is worth allowing myself to be in the

muck to allow the emotion to come up.

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Some days I'll just sit with

this and I will just cry.

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Like, I will just burst out

into tears and cry and sob.

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And so, but sometimes I'll be by myself

and sometimes there'll be others around.

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Quite often it's my husband.

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He'll just look at me

like, what's going on?

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I like, I don't know.

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Just, just another layer that needs to be

cleared for me to get back to my trust.

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You know, that this is all for me.

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That everything that is unfolding

right now is, for me, it's either

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clearing something from the past, it's

showing me a fear that I've got, you

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know, there was a fear that really

when I was sitting in this muck today,

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just before hitting record on this

podcast, I was journaling in my diary.

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Journaling in my journal, I

should say, um, about what I'm

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feeling and what's going on.

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And one of the things that

came up was this sense of,

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ugh, I just feel so ordinary.

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Like I just feel so, so ordinary,

so in so much in the unknown that I

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don't even know how to define myself.

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I can define how I'm

feeling, but I can't define.

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Exactly what it is that's going

on, and I just feel so ordinary.

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And I realized as I dug deeper

into that, that I have been

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carrying a fear of being ordinary.

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And that's why right now in this mode

and this moment that I'm in, where these

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feeling of being so ordinary is really

rising to the surface and activating me

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in the biggest way is because I didn't

realize that I had spent so much time,

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deep down, intrinsically and unconsciously

being afraid of being ordinary.

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And so therefore, I'm always in the

doing, always in the studying, the

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learning, the perfecting, the elevating,

and not so much just elevating from

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an energy perspective, because I do

a lot in that space, but this need to

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elevate from a expertise level to not be

ordinary so that I don't get rejected.

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When I dug deeper into this feeling and

I was working with my guides and angels

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to try and uncover what is this about

being ordinary that I am so terrified

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of, and that's why I'm struggling in this

void and this liminal space, because all

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of a sudden it's like, there's just me.

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There's just me in this ordinariness.

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It's like, oh my goodness, I'm feared.

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I have a fear of being.

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Lost in the crowd, or worse rejected by

the crowd because I had wrapped around

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this energy of ordinary, the ability

for others to decide whether or not I am

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good enough, whether or not I have value.

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And so it's like trying to

escape or avoid being labeled.

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Ordinary by others.

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This term feels like I,

it's a very external term.

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It's a term that's determined by others.

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I've given the power of decision and

acceptance away to other people, and

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so therefore, it's like they have

the power to decide whether I'm good

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enough or whether I am ordinary,

and that is a very difficult emotion

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to have to give away to others.

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and this can happen so subtly I had

no idea that I had actually attributed

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not only a definition to ordinary but

I'd also given so much power away and

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the fear of being judged, of being.

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rejected was so overwhelming

that I have forever been running

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away from being ordinary.

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I know I've had a lot of experiences

in this lifetime about being

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rejected, particularly in primary

school and secondary school,

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just based on my appearance.

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You know, I was always the chubby kid.

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The nerdy kid, the, the quieter shy kid

because I had my voice shut down very

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early on that I retreated and then would

try and be cool and try and pretend, try

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and put masks on to, you know, fit in.

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But I would always be rejected.

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And, and to reinforce this

behavior of being ordinary is bad

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because the others have the power.

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The other has to have the power to decide

on whether I'm worthy, whether I'm good

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enough, whether I'm worth being here.

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And that energy started so, so early

on for me that I know that it also

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is carried through from past lives.

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There's so been so many lifetimes that

I've lived where this, this need to

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not be ordinary or to, to avoid being

rejected from a societal group, it's

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so powerful that it's played on through.

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And so sitting with this now,

it's like, I need to be an expert.

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I need to be well educated.

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I need to continue to prove my value.

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It's like, oh my goodness.

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This desperation of not being ordinary is

particularly in any of those periods of

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void or liminal space or transformational

space that I've been in when I've moved

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through different transitions in my

lifetime, it's like, oh my goodness.

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I was definitely terrified

of showing anything too real.

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Not so much hiding or faking, but

like wanting to make sure things were

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framed in the right way, just to show

that I'm worth being listened to or

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I'm worth being here, particularly as

a mentor, particularly as a leader.

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And so a lot of these earlier stuff I

reflect back on now and it's like, oh

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my gosh, everything that I said was true

and real in that I had this beautiful

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intention of helping others, but there

was this energy there of like, oh, but

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I, I don't wanna say it in that way, just

in case people think that I'm ordinary.

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'cause I can't be ordinary

'cause I'll be rejected.

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It's like this incredible spiral that

kind of came down and came around.

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But I needed to be in, coming back to the

void I needed to be in the void space.

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To be able to really understand and unpack

some of that and see some of the things

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so clearly, because When we're in the,

the 2D reality of being who we are or the

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3D reality I should say, of being who we

are in the, the material physical world.

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Some of these traits and some

of these behaviors are just so

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deeply unconscious and embedded

within us that we can't see them.

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I didn't know I was running away from

being ordinary, uh, so much until I

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was in this space of completely looking

and stripping back and understanding

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what I'd built around me, what I'd

built within me, what I'd built as

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the layers of armor that I wore, the

masks that I wore into the society.

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It wasn't until deciding and having those

completely stripped back and stripped

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bare to be able to say, okay, what is

here for me to see it and for me to feel

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when I went to say something or went to

journal something and felt that resistance

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around, oh, but that's ordinary.

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That's plain.

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And be like, okay.

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Mm-hmm.

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All right, honey, show me what

is here to really see that.

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And so trusting.

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There's a reason why we're in this

void space and that there's this time

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and space to finally strip back all of

this stuff is so incredibly powerful.

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Coming back to that question of like,

if this is for me, then now what?

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For me then now what?

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Even though though it's not a practical,

go and do this thing or build this offer

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or take this, step, you know, that I don't

necessarily have the action-based clarity.

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The now what for me is very much in

that excavation space of what is here.

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Particularly what is here that I no longer

wanna carry forward into this new version

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of who I'm becoming because I firmly

believe that the universe, my angels, my

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guardians, are making me do this so that

that new version that I step into can not

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only be revealed to me, but can be real.

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And can be fulfilling and deep and

something that I am really excited

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and proud of stepping forward as.

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And so that for me, if this is

for me now, what is like, okay.

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I just need to sit with this.

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I need to make sure that my journaling

practice is there, my meditation

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practice, my movement practice, my

photography practice, all of these little

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things that come back to the realness

that is me, that helps me excavate

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these emotions that keep coming up.

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You know, like what is this for?

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How is this for me?

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What is this showing me?

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And allowing these.

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Beautiful practices to just strip away

and reveal, like panning for gold, you

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know, just panning, panning, panning,

letting the water and the stones just

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agitate through so that the things

that need to rise to the surface can.

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Then I can choose what I carry forward.

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I choose not to carry forward this fear of

being ordinary because it is so deeply and

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intrinsically important to me to be real.

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And that's what I sat with this

morning when I was journaling.

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It's like, what if I replaced

the word ordinary with real?

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Rather than I, I'm

afraid of being ordinary.

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It's like I'm afraid of not being

real, of not being able to share these

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vulnerable moments, these real authentic

moments, because I truly believe that

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these are the things that are in the most

service to me, and by being in the most

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service to me, they are then in the most

service to you and to us as a whole, as

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a collective, because I truly, at the

bottom of everything when I look down

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and deep and really ask myself what it

is that I want to spend the rest of my

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years doing, it's to be in service for us

and not just in service for someone else.

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For an external validation

for a great job, Andi, you're

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very wise and you helped me.

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You are amazing because that again,

is giving my power away to others

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to then validate me or, give me

that reassurance that I have value.

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It's like, no, I'm taking my

value meter or my worth meter,

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so to say, back for myself.

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And I am deciding through the actions

of service, of clarity, of being real,

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of showing up and saying the things

that are real and true for me in the

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moments, is being in service to us.

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It is the thing that I choose to do

and then choose to value that myself.

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And really spending the time in this

void space of like taking back my value

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meter, taking back the, the criteria,

the decision making of whether I have

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value or not, and taking that back

for myself and, in doing that, by

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allowing myself to have my own back,

to have my own sense of self-worth

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and what is true and what is real,

then I know I'll know what to become.

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Then I'll know what is on the other

side of this period, this period of

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becoming, because I'll be able to step

into that next version of, action.

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The, the actual doing stuff, whether

it's where I live, where I travel to the

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office that I have, whether I go back and,

collaborate or work with someone else,

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whether I continue on my own journey,

whether it's my photography and writing,

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that becomes the thing like whatever

that action based decision and step is,

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it will be done because I've chosen that

I have value and that I have worth, and

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then everything that I do will come from a

place that can then help and serve others

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because if I do that, I know deep down,

and it's so, it feels so ugly to have to

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admit, but if I try to serve from a place

where I need you, you who's listening

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to, to say, oh, great job, Andrea.

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Love that episode well done.

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Or if I try to show up and serve from

a space of just needing that, that

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knowing of doing something from someone

else so that they are better to fulfill

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or be the reason that gives me value.

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It's comes from the wrong place.

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And it can be very confusing

because it's like, well, if you

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are in service to others, that is

selfless and therefore that is good.

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So are you saying that

you don't wanna do that?

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I'm like, no.

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I wanna do it from a place that I am

doing it because I know that I have value.

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From the words that I'm saying

from me, I have value rather

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than do you think I have value?

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It's just shifting the energy flow of

where the decision making of whether I'm

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worthy or not comes from, so that when I

do show up to serve, it's like from this

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beautiful place of wholeness of, I've

decided that I belong here in this world.

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I've decided that it's not worth giving

up on that, that those moments when it's

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really dark and it's really heavy and the

emotion comes at you, it's like it's worth

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trusting that there's a reason to hold on.

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You know, it comes from that place

of I'm here because I choose to be.

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So funny.

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A little side note.

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My husband and I took a pottery class

a couple of years ago for my birthday.

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It's one of my favorite things to do.

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I love investing in experience as a

little craft, or makers classes or pottery

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classes, painting, all that kind of thing.

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And he organized for my birthday to take

us to a pinch pot type ceramics class.

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And we made these beautiful

little ceramics, I mean.

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Beginner level.

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They weren't amazing.

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But for us, they were

really, really special.

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And we love them.

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We still use them to this day.

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But before they went into the kiln,

we had to write with a toothpick,

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our name on the bottom of these

beautiful pieces of ceramics.

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And we looked at each other and we're

like, we're gonna write Andi and Matt.

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Like that's, we could, but

let's write something fun.

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Like if we had a pottery

brand, what would it be?

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One of our, um, big things that we've

always said in our relationship is that

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we're not here because we need to be.

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We are here by choice.

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We are here by choice.

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And so on the bottom of all of our

ceramics at home, if you turn them

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over, they say here by choice.

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And I think this is such a

powerful thing to get into for

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ourselves is like, yeah, I'm here.

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I'm choosing to be here.

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I'm choosing to still stay here.

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Particularly for anyone who's ever felt

that, that desperation, that darkness,

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that, sense of like, what is the point?

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I'm in the void.

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I'm in the liminal space.

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I, I don't know who I am.

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I can't catch my breath.

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Everything just feels

too heavy and too vast.

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That saying of I'm here by choice and

choosing to be here and choosing to

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navigate that so that you can then

attribute your own self of having

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value and bringing that value to

the world is the most valuable thing

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that you will ever do for your life.

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So I hope that's been helpful.

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If you're in the void,

no, you're not alone.

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I am here with you.

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We're gonna keep talking about this.

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We're gonna keep moving forward, and

whatever you do, just decide that you

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are worth being here, that you are here

by choice, that there is trust that

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you can source, and that every move

that you make is getting you closer

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to the woman that you are becoming.

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I love you and I'll see

you in the next episode.

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Thank you so much for

tuning into today's episode.

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If you wanna check out all of the

behind the scenes content for this

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podcast, make sure you subscribe to my

Substack channel, the Becoming Archive.

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You will also be able to find me on

Threads and Instagram at andi.matthies.

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Make sure you're connected and

stay up to date with what's coming.

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About the Podcast

The Bold Brave Woman Project
Welcome to the Bold Brave Woman Project. I’m Andrea Lee Matthies — writer, photographer, and clairvoyant medium — and this show is a living, breathing unfolding of what it means to become.

Born from the ashes of a failed YouTube channel, this weekly podcast brings you raw, unfiltered moments of failure, bravery, and deep intuitive knowing — so you can walk your own path of becoming with greater trust, courage, and clarity.

Follow along at andreamatthies.substack.com and on Threads & Instagram @andi.matthies for all the episode extras and behind-the-scenes reflections.
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About your host

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Andrea Lee Matthies

Andrea Lee Matthies is a writer, photographer, and clairvoyant medium devoted to the raw, real, and radiant journey of becoming. With a background in performance, creative media, voice, and intuitive healing, she creates spaces where truth can rise and women can return to the power of who they are.

Her work blends storytelling, soul transmission, and spiritual insight, supporting women to reclaim their voice and navigate the challenges that come with the journey of self-discovery. Through her camera, her words, and her presence, Andrea invites deep connection, brave expression, and sacred transformation.

The Bold Brave Woman Project is her offering to the world: a living archive of what it means to fall apart, rise again, and trust the becoming.